Chat Log for Workshop #2 on 10/21/98
Subject: Editors, Reviewers and Critiquers: What are they looking for?
The following is a transcript of the Forum on Content and Story held by MSF&F. Special Guests include Steve Aligieri, Editor of Pulp Eternity & Eternity On-Line, Patricia White, Associate Editor of Under the Covers Book Reviews, and Lila Guzman, Professional Critiquer and Author.
di - Welcome to MSF&F workshop.
Remember to hit update often
Lila - logged on.
Lila - Hi. How are you tonight?
di - Hi Lila, just fine. My email was
out all last night, so Jo and I are trying to catch up.
di - How are you doing. Jo sent me the
Edit, Ink article. I cannot believe that they were able to sue someone on the Web. Freedom
of Speech?
Lila - I heard from the editor of
Writers News that she'd received a letter from Edit Ink. They are now going after
screenwriters. Have they no shame?
Steve Algieri - logged on, framefree.
di - Hi Steve, remember to hit update
often.
Jo - Hi, folks. Thanks for coming.
Lila - Of course, they made 4.3
million in 3 years, so apparently what they're doing is lucrative.
di - Lila, how can they? I mean the NY
State Attorney found them guilty.
Lila - Jo, thanks for sending Di the
Edit Ink article
Pat - logged on.
Lila - Because they DID provide a
service.
Lila - You could pay them $700 and
they would do a four-page critique for you. They weren't just taking the money and giving
you nothing.
di - Hi Pat, how are you tonight?
Jo - Hi Steve and Lila, so glad you
made it.
Steve Algieri - Even convicted felons
can sue. Doesn't mean they'll win.
Lila - Thanks for inviting me.
Jo - Hey Pat, Hi. Didn't see ya.
Lila - Hi, Pat.
Pat - logged on. Lila - Hi
Steve.
Jen - logged on. -
di - Apparently though, they have
been. That is what is so scary.
Jo - my server is a little slow
tonight, so if I seem to have left, don't believe it.
Pat - I'm sorry, but the server won't
allow me to enter
di - hi Jen, how are you tonight?
Jo - You are welcome Lila. Glad you
are here.
Pat - I'm sorry, but the server won't
allow me to enter
Helen - logged on, framefree.
Jen - Pretty good, di! Hi everyone!
di - Hi Helen, how are you? Remember
to hit update often.
Jean Goldstrom - logged on.
Jean Goldstrom - Jo:
Jo - Jen, Hi
di - Hi Jean
Jo - Hi Jean, Helen
Jen - Hallo, Jo! Long time no chat.
Steve Algieri - Hello to all!
Jean Goldstrom - Hello! Nice to be
here, nice to see you all here.
Jo - Are you in, Pat
Pat - logged on
Jean Goldstrom - Hello, all. Good
evening, Steve.
Jo - Steve seems you are the only
rooster in this hen house so far. Enjoy it.
Lila - lol
Jo - Yes, Jen, I've missed you
Jean Goldstrom - Jean Goldstrom: I
think I detect his big grin from here.
Steve Algieri - Hi Jean. :Preening
wings: (Is that what roosters do?)
Dragon - logged on.
di - Jen, have you heard anything?
Jen - Hi, Lila, Steve, and Jean and
maybe(hopefully) Pat! Nice to see you all.
di - Hi Dragon
Lila - Hi, Jen. Hi, Dragon.
Jen - Nope, I am waiting by the phone,
Di. Sent it two weeks ago Saturday.
Jen - Hi Dragon!
Lila - Hey, Dragon. Are you rooster or
hen?
di - Well, two weeks is not very
long...
di - We shall never know Lila??
Jen - No, not too long. Since she just
got back from vacation and all, I expect it might be a little while.
Lila - Di--I guess not
Jen - Lol, Lila.
di - Well, it is past 8, and since I
am dying to know... what is everyone looking for out there?
Jen - Whoops, forgot Helen. Hello,
Helen!
Lila - Di & all--first off, a good
story
Lila - something interesting
Lila - A story that leaves me with
something more than a feeling of "So what? Why did I waste my time reading
this?"
Jean Goldstrom - Jean Goldstrom:
Here's a question. Is there any clue to the age group reading speculative fiction today?
At one time in the ancient days, it was all teen boys. Of course that is different now,
but what's your view?
Lila - I'm also looking for memorable
characters and a likable protagonist (or at least one I can stick with till the end of the
story)
di - I think more women are reading
specfic these days, but the number of female protagonists remains limited.
di - I think more women are reading
specfic these days, but the number of female protagonists remains limited.
Steve Algieri - Which kind of
speculative fiction? The SF and fantasy reader are quite different.
Lila - Di, why do you think that is?
di - SciFi is my choice of reading,
Steve
Jo - Steve, do you have anyway of
knowing which are reading what?
Jean Goldstrom - di: I have noticed in
mystery genre, a female protagonist is almost * required* - and if she has a cat, so much
the better. There are literally dozens of such books in the larger stores now, all side by
side by side...sigh.
Helen - logged on, framefree. Lila
- Hi, Helen
Jo - Are there more females reading
and writing fantasy than men?
Lila - And more men writing and
reading sci fi?
Steve Algieri - SF is still skewed to
the male side somewhat, but not as much. Not kids either, unless you count serial fiction.
Jo - Welcome back Helen. Are you with
us, Pat?
Steve Algieri - Yes, more women read
and write fantasy but ... that's changing.
Helen - Hi Jo
di - I've noticed that you have added
mystery, and romance to your magazine, Steve. What prompted you to do that?
Steve Algieri - The marketing gurus
think they know. But they don't.
Jo - Really glad you could make it,
Helen, pop right in with questions.
Steve Algieri - Because romance and
mystery has always been tied to specfic. Plus, it's a chance to explore.
Lila - Steve--is there anything that
is way over done. Stories you see crossing your desk ALL the time?
di - They think they know what? From
what I heard, the trad. mags are looking for readership.
Lila - Steve--is there anything that
is way over done. Stories you see crossing your desk ALL the time?
Hooten - logged on.
di - Hi Hooten
Steve Algieri - What's this obsession
with present tense all of a sudden? Yuch, 99.99% of the time. And journal enries. Double
yuch!
Jo - Hooten? Hello. Welcome
Hooten - Hi di, just figurin this thin
out...first time here
Jen - I have noticed quite a few books
lately in present tense.
Lila - I've heard the present tense
makes the reader feel like he's really there. At least that's what they say.
Jo - You don't like present tense,
Steve?
Livia - logged on, framefree.
di - You mean like diaries?
Helen - Present tense seems to be
"in". It'll pass
Jo - Hello Livia, welcome.
Steve Algieri - Oh, and about 75% of
the stories I receive are set in some default fantasyland. How hard is it to write Chicago
instead of big city?
Hooten - Hi di, just figurin this thin
out...first time here
Jo - Hooten and Livia, it's a little
slow tonight, so remember to hit update often.
Livia - Hello. It's my first time
also.
Steve Algieri - I guess I'm a purist.
To me, present tense is slow and boring. Generally, it serves no purpose.
Livia - If you write Chicago, then you
have to get all the Chicago-details right, surely. Which is a bit tricky if you live in
Seattle.
Jo - Do you think that a lot of that
is due to new writers trying to follow the "rules" of writing that all the books
say "must" be followed?
Helen - Sounds like they're trying to
est. a "universality"
di - How do you feel about the
omniscent narrator? That seems to be coming back.
Lila - Steve--could you tell a little
something about how you select stories. You have a pile of 20 on your desk. You can only
pick 10. What makes it to the reject pile and why?
di - sorry Steve, I still can't spell
Helen - Writing in present tense goes
against the rules of writing, though
Jo - Yeah!!!!! Pat!!!
Steve Algieri - Lila, it's hard to
generalize but I like stories that take chances. I like characters who change or who, by
their actions, change others or society. I like Harlequins!
Helen - Ditto on Lila's question
Lila - Do you see a story line being
repeated over and over till you're sick of it?
Helen - Humor seems to be strong right
now. Does that appeal to you, Steve?
Steve Algieri - Hate the omniscient
narrator. I don't want to know what everyone thinks. That's lazy writing. I want to
experience the panorama of the world a writer creates. I want to taste those Chicago dogs.
Drive by Wrigley field. Feel the frustration of a traffic jam on a Friday night. I want it
all.
Lila - A common problem I see as a
critiquer, especially among fledgling writers, is--it ain't got no voice.
Jo - Steve, in a short story it's very
hard to do omniscient any way without confusing the reader. Is that one of the reasons you
don't like it?
Steve Algieri - I love humor. Not
slapstick, but the wry and satiric kind. SF humor is tough though.
Steve Algieri - Too much bad vampire
stuff.
Helen - Lila, how do you advise a
beginner to "find" their voice?
Lila - Vampires, huh? Thanks for the
tip. That's nice to know.
Jo - Lila, do you get a lot of that?
No voice? or a mixture?
Lila - Vampires, huh? Thanks for the
tip. That's nice to know.
Lila - If someone has e-mail, I
suggest they read e-mails from losts of people. Voice comes blaring through, especially if
you are in a flaming session with someone.
Jo - I agree with the vampire thing.
It seems to be a fad right now, that and elves with no real direction except they are
elves.
Jen - Yes, there are a lot of vampire
stories out there.(Of course, I'm guilty of writing vampire stories, so who am I to talk?)
Lila - Jo, yes. I get a lot of
"no voice." An Arkansas pig farmer sounds the same as a lawyer? I don't think
so.
Livia - Some editors seem to find wry
and satiric humor not personal or "active" enough. I'd better send some of mine
to you. :)
Pat - k, have received a large number
of submissions in varying genres and mostly there's no voice,
no focus, and very little of anything else--like basic skills.
Steve Algieri - In short fiction you
have so little time to develop "one" character that a reader empathizes with and
one the reader fears and/or hates. More than one? That's tough. And Lila is right. A very
common problem.
Lila - I think voice is one of the
hardest concepts for a writer to grasp. Because of the nuances. Is your character going to
say "Give me a soda?" "May I have a coca cola?" "Gimme a
pop?"
Pat - Steve, do you adhere to Poe's
notion of what constitutes a short story?
di - Yes, Jen, but you write about
female vampires, and it is humourous. That you don't see that much
Helen - But is having your characters
sound authentic the same thing as the author's voice?
Jen - Thanks, di. Oh, that reminds me.
I have something for you.
Hooten - logged on.
Lila - Helen & all: When I see a
problem with voice, I tell a reader to pretend they are the character. Swagger to the
coffee pot for a refill if you're writing a macho man. Fidget like a school kid in front
of the principal if you're writing a "bad" kid. Put yourself in their shoes and
in their head. What are they seeing? What are they feeling?
Pat - Helen, I doubt that you would
confuse two of your favorite authors' voices--Eddings and Jordon sound nothing alike in
their writing
Jo - Pat, I agree. I finally decided
that if I find 3 or more errors in the first paragraph, it's a reject.
Lila - Jo, more nice to know
information
Steve Algieri - Dialog where everyone
sounds like Tom Brokaw and Connie Chung. Even dragons!
di - Thanks Jen, I have been waiting
:-)
Lila - Another way to conquer
voice--write in the first person. "Become" that person.
Jen - That's a good idea, Lila.
Helen - I agree, Pat. I think I just
need to alter my terminology. What Lila is calling voice, I think I call characterization.
Steve Algieri - Poe's my hero and
favorite author. So yes.
Jo - Lila, I find that first person is
hard to sell. Why do you think that is ?
Lila - Helen, I think of voice as that
"thing" in your writing that sets it apart. I could pick up Hank the Cow Dog,
any book, and identify the author by the voice.
Jo - Me too, Steve, along with Asimov
di - I think that is where I get
confused Steve. Some say DON'T write dialect, and some say why didn't you. Like I'm coming
& I'm comin'
Steve Algieri - Lila, do you think
writing in first person actually personalizes the writing? I've found quite the opposite.
Helen - You can write it in first
person to find that character's "voice" then switch back to third
Lila - Jo--I'll have to think about
that.
Lila - If lst person is done right, I
think it can be effective. However, most of the short stories I've done have been 3rd
person, past tense. I see alot of first person in juvenile and young adult novels.
Steve Algieri - di, it's not just
dialog and dialect. The character must act and react consistent with who they are.
Pat - YA novels tend to be maturation
novels--and the first person helps the reader identify.
Lila - I think lst person helps young
readers identify more with the protagonist. Something on the order of "My Brother Sam
is Dead" wouldn't be as effective if it were 3rd person.
Jen - I think almost all of the short
stories I've written have been first person. Just because it's easier to get into the
character's head that way.
Pat - Di, would you like me to send
you a copy of the character chart I use for character?
Jo - Lila writes for young readers,
don't you Lila?
Lila - Helen had a good
suggestion--write in lst, then switch to 3rd
Lila - Novels, yes. Short stories, no.
Jo - Pat, send me one too. Couldn't
hoit!
Steve Algieri - First person is an
advance skill. You gain emotional impact while plot development tends to suffer. Read Gene
Wolfe's Book of the New Sun and Greek books: Soldies of the Mist and Soldiers of Alrete.
No one does FP better than Wolfe did in the 80's.
Jen - I'll have to try that. It sounds
like it would work.
Pat - Ordinarily, I'd say the book (I
don't write short stories) dictates the narrative voice.
di - Yes, Pat, that would be great.
Sorry, Son called from College brb
Lila - I agree, Steve. With lst
person, you are restricted on what the reader can know because "I" can't know
everything.
Lila - The writer must be more clever,
because everything in funneled through the lst person's eyes, feelings,
Jen - I've heard that before, Steve.
Pat - The fantasy I'm writing at the
moment is about 100K and in first person--mainly because the narrator is the only one who
can tell the story. And he may be lying.
Jen - Some authors get around that
restriction and still use first person.
Jo - Cool, Pat. That has to be
difficult.
Lila - Jen--Right. That's where
cleverness comes in.
Jen - Sounds neat, Pat.
Pat - Hey, how else can you tell a
tale about a gunfighter meeting a drunken elf?
Lila - lol
Lila - Oh, that reminds me. Another
common problem I see is lack of originality in plot ideas.
Jo - Now there is an elf I'd like to
meet. Sounds like my kinda guy.
Helen - And which "I" would
you choose, Pat? The gunfighter or the elf?
Steve Algieri - Lila, but the major
mistake writers make with FP is that you're also limited by the narrator's weaknesses.
That's the missing element. An impetuous FP narrator who lays out a story with methodical
precision. No, no! The narrative must reflect the character's personality and state of
mind.
Lila - good question, Helen
Pat - The gunfighter, of course. I
hate talking to drunks--even if they are elves.
Lila - Jean, the message didn't come
through. Sorry
Jen - I haven't had much experience
with first person(all my other books have been third), but I'm having fun with it in the
current series. Experimenting.<g>
Jo - That's my problem, Steve. I've
been trying to be rational in my stories and I haven't had a rational thought in months.
Jen - Lol, Pat.
di - Sorry, another crises
Lila - In first person, moments of
epiphany help. "What a dolt I've been."
Lila - The FP narrator must be chosen
carefully. Who wants to be in a pedophile's head?
Steve Algieri - Every plot has been
done to death. There are only 36 possible plots. The characters make all difference in the
world.
di - First person did help me with my
wandering POV though.
Lila - Interesting, Steve. Thanks
Jean Goldstrom - On lack of
originality in stories - do you think it stems from writers writing what they have read
rather than what they have experienced?
Helen - The FP narrator has to be
likeable and/or very interesting or the reader begins to scream "Get me out of this
person's hear!"
Jo - You know, Lila, I think you may
be wrong there. Look at all the books that sell on what makes a serial killer tick.
Jen - True crime and all.
Jo - Right, Steve.
Helen - head. Excuse my typo
Lila - Yes, Jo, but we aren't in the
person's brain for the whole book
Livia II - logged on, framefree.
Lila - Silence of the Lambs was from
the FBI woman's POV?
Pat - I just edited a book, first
person, told from the killer's view point, and I didn't know if he was guilty until the
very end of the book.
Jo - True, Lila.
Livia II - System crash! How do I get
rid of the first Livia?
Steve Algieri - Ask this question? Why
has Stephen King been so successful. He'll even admit that he's not a great writer from a
technical standpoint. Why do his books sell then?
Lila - Was he guilty or not, Pat? Just
curious
Lila - His books sell because he
scares the devil out of us
Jo - Pat, in real life, few hardend
killers feel guilty. So that stands to reason. From his point of view, he was doing
something rightious or fun or whatever, but not wrong.
Pat - The Fiction works will be
bringing it out in a month or so, so I'd rather not say.
Jo - She'll go away on her own Livia.
She'll time out. Just ignore her.
Livia II - Agatha Christie and Ruth
Rendell have both done very good first-person mysteries, often with that type of final
twist.
Jen - Boy, there was just a really
huge discussion about King on one of the mailing lists I'm on.
di - That has to be done very
carefully Pat. I have read books like that, and I felt cheated.
Lila - Let me rephrase that. Would you
have read if you had known he was guilty? Would it have worked in that case. Or was the
charm of the book the mystery about guilt or innocence?
Steve Algieri - Lila, I think you mean
unoriginal themes not plots. I suggest that everyone look over Pulte's 36 plots. Five are
no longer viable today. Leaves 31. Boy meets girl is one.
Jean Goldstrom - On the Stephen King
question - somehow he involves the reader. He makes you care about what happens to his
characters. How? Ah, that's the question.
Helen - He keeps you on the edge of
your seat, wanting to keep reading to find out what happens next
Pat - The charm of the book was that I
was getting paid to edit it.
Jo - Tobias' 20 MASTER PLOTS is a good
book to refresh on plots too.
Jen - Steve, where would I find the 36
plots?
Lila - Yes, Steve. Romeo and Juliet
can be done in NYC, on the moon, wherever.
Lila - Pat--lol
Helen - Seems to me, most mysteries
tend to be third person. And most suspense is third, multiple POV. Agree?
Steve Algieri - Lila, I'll go one step
further. Other than Poe, Stoker and Lovecraft, no writer know fear like King. He
understands how every character will react faced with their fears. IT is a great example
of that.
Lila - Agree
Pat - Steven King irritates me. I
won't review his books because I don't like them;-)
Lila - IT scared the *** out of my
kids.
Steve Algieri - I disagree Helen. No
genre publishes a higher percentage of FP novels than mystery.
Helen - And we're back to characters
being true to themselves.
di - You are right about that Steve,
he has no cardboard characters.
di - At least, his main characters are
not.
Jo - Mystery can be woven into any
genre. It's the element of suspense that keeps the reader turning pages.
Steve Algieri - Interesting Pat. How
about Rice? A different writer with a different reason behind her success.
Lila - Jen, if you'll give Jo your
e-mail, I can give you a web site that has them. A book about them was advertised in
Writer's Digest this month. I forget the author's name.
Helen - Odd. I wouldn't have thought
that, Steve. And I read a lot of mysteries. That's interesting.
Jen - She has it, thanks, Lila!
Lila - Isn't every book a mystery? You
don't know (or shouldn't know what's going to happen until the last few pages.
Helen - Very few books have no element
of mystery to them. Most have some element of romance.
BAHWOLF - logged on.
Lila - Jo, could you pass Jen's e-mail
to me so I can send her the 36?
Jo - I have her email, Lila, I can
send it to you and you can get in touch with her. That ok, Jen?
Steve Algieri - Especially
hardboileds. I'm a Tony Hillerman fan myself.
Jen - That's fine, Jo.
BAHWOLF - Boo!
Jean Goldstrom - Steve, what are some
of the 5 plots that don't work anymore?
Jen - I've been listening to those on
audio, Steve. Very good!
Jo - Hi Bahwolf
di - Hi Bahwolf
Pat - Ann Rice isn't one of my
favorite writers either. I like Robin Hobb and some of the newer fantasy writers: Mary
Brown is good.
Jen - Hi, Bahwolf!
Jo - I'm a fan of FP private eye
stuff, myself.
BAHWOLF - Hi, Joan. Brian Hopkins
here.
Pat - Hi, Bahwolf
Jen - I thought it was you,
Bahwolf<g>
BAHWOLF - Hi, Pat, Steve, Di, Jen!
BAHWOLF - Ha. If you invite him, he
will come.
di - Aren't Patricia Cornwell's books
FP?
BAHWOLF - Jen St Clair?
Jo - Hey Brian, glad you could make
it.
Lila - Don't read her. Sorry
Jen - Guilty!
Pat - Yes, Cornwell's are and great in
the bargain.
di - Hi Brian, how are you, and I love
your stories.
Steve Algieri - Jean, the five plots
that don't work are the old Greek and Roman tragedies. Not enough conflict or telegraphed
endings. People still write man suffers for art and I think I get every one submitted to
me. :-)
Lila - That question about the 5 plots
that don't work anymore is a real head scratcher.
Jen - I have no idea, Di. I haven't
read her.
BAHWOLF - Good to "see" you,
Jen. Been a while.
Jean Goldstrom - Thanks, Steve. I see
what you mean.
Steve Algieri - Hi Brian. Didn't scare
me.
Jen - You too, Bah. I've been busy.
BAHWOLF - Thanks, Di! I'm fine. Quit
writing to check my mail and got Joan's invite.
Livia II - For whatever reason, I
generally don't like first person, either to read or to write. When I was a kid I called
them "I-books", and avoided them like the plague.
Pat - Steven, I'll bet I could write
Edipus again and sell it--if I added a bit here and there;-)
Jo - Not every one Steve, some are
reserved for us.
Jen - Makes sense, Steve.
Lila - Jo--lol
BAHWOLF - Never do scare you, though,
Steve.
Pat - And Medea--that would be fun!
Jean Goldstrom - Pat, you could call
it something like "Ed, de Puss," and it would hit the bestseller list.
Jen - Lol, Jean!
Jo - LOL, Jean
BAHWOLF - LOL, Jean
Lila - But do you mean the plot is
dated, or the theme?
Helen - Sounds like a good pen name,
Eddie Puss
Livia II - No, you'd call it "The
forbidden Love" or "Hot Incest!", and make it into a TV mini-series.
di - Jean you need to meet Starlite
BAHWOLF - Hmmm . . . aren't all plots
kinda dated?
Lila - Boy falls in love with Mommie
could be any time period
BAHWOLF - Leastwise, when you break
them down.
Steve Algieri - Pat, Oedipus Rex isn't
man suffers for his art. It follows Crime and Punishment: Man against self. That's a
powerful plot. Difficult but powerful.
Jean Goldstrom - Di, ah, dare I ask
why I need to meet Starlite?
Jo - Of course they are, bah. That's
why it's so interesting to come up with a twist.
BAHWOLF - WE're in violent agreement,
Jo. <g>
Pat - I though Eddie's besetting sin
was huberous
di - Makes the same kind of jokes. ;-)
Jo - Whew, at least someone agrees
with me.
Jean Goldstrom - Di, best to keep us
apart. What if we rerproduced? Ah, there's a Stephen King-type plot.
BAHWOLF - Ha! That's what *I* was
thinking!
Steve Algieri - The more powerful the
plot, the harder to write. That's the challenge. Redemption of self: no there's one that
can enthrall a reader. 99.999999% of writers fail with that one.
Jo - Man against self is one of the
most interesting plots there is.
Steve Algieri - Eddie Puss is already
taken...
Steve Algieri - by a punk rocker.
BAHWOLF - Is there another interface
to this room besides browser? IRC perhaps?
Jean Goldstrom - Eddie Puss, de punker
- boy or girl? Or can we tell?
di - But they can be boring. I have
several characters I'd like to kick in the rear.
Steve Algieri - Boy meets girl is the
most common. Easier to write.
Jo - no sorry Brian. This is it,
private rooms and such, but it's the most browser friendly one.
Jen - Hence the number of Harlequins?
BAHWOLF - Often more entertaining,
too. <g>
Steve Algieri - Boy.
Lila - Goes back to Helen's comment
that almost every novel has romance somewhere
di - We chose this room because the
java-challenged could attend
Jo - Most of us have ICQ but not as an
interface.
Jen - (not that I have anything
against Harlequins, but they do tend to breed.)
Jo - I am java challenged. Among other
things.
Jean Goldstrom - Steve, on redemption
of self: First such story that came to my mind: "Green Hills of Earth." You are
so right.
BAHWOLF - Thought it wouldn't hurt to
ask. Boy meets girls sells. That explains why I'm wasting so much time writing boy meets
whale. LOL
Jo - Breed!! They are down right
prolific!!
Jen - Mine isn't supposed to be, but
it pretends it is a lot.
Jo - LOL Bah
di - lol
Jen - Worse than rabbits sometimes,
Jo.<g>
Steve Algieri - Ah, my Harlequins! If
you want to know what I'm about read Harlan Ellison's "Repent Harlequin," said
the Tick Tock Man. That's my favorite story.
Jen - Whale? ouch.Lol, Bah.
Jo - I tried to write boy meets girl
once. She ended up killing him with an ax.
Steve Algieri - And otter, Brian.
Lila - Jo--lol
Jean Goldstrom - Steve: "Repent
Harlequin" is * not * what we thought you meant by "Harlequins." You make a
jest, si?
BAHWOLF - LOL, Steve.
di - ouch for whom Jen?
Jen - But that's a good plot twist,
Jo!
BAHWOLF - Wading Inland, Jen. My
novel.
di - Smart cookie, Jo
Jen - the whale.<g>
Jo - Ahh Harlan. Darn, I haven't had
time to read anything but submissions lately, how do you do it Steve?
Jen - I'm teasing you, bah.
Steve Algieri - Jo, I need to
introduce you to dgk. You can dream up unique boy meets girl twists.
Jo - The boy didn't think so, Jen
BAHWOLF - Wasn't sure, dear. bah is so
easily confused, you know.
Jen - That's why I made it
clear.<g>
Steve Algieri - Jean, that's exactly
what I meant. Jelly beans in every story!
Jo - Yes, Steve, dgk does do that,
doesn't he?
Steve Algieri - dgk is a she.
di - ouch BAH
Jo - Oops, I knew that, Steve. I was
just testing you.
di - Sorry all, I must leave. Have
fun.
Jen - Bye di! Check your email.
di - logged off.
Jo - Goodnight, di. Thanks.
Jean Goldstrom - So long, Di. Nice
typing at you.
BAHWOLF - Bye, Di. Do I know you?
Pat - Good bye, di
Lila - bye, di
BAHWOLF - Too late.
Jo - Di is my co publisher and editor,
Bah. Without her, Millennium would be floundering with your whale
Steve Algieri - My pet peeve is to go
to workshop or read a book where Character driven versus plot driven stories are
discussed.
BAHWOLF - Ah, I see. Something about
my entrance and her greeting said she knew who I was...
Lila - If the character's not
interesting, can there be much of a plot?
Jo - Elaborate please, Steve.
Steve Algieri - Horse pucky. Every
great story has a great plot and great characters.
Jean Goldstrom - Steve, you mean it is
posed as "either" character "or" plot, like you can have one without
the other?
Jo - Yep, she's a big fan of yours,
Bah.
Jen - I thought so, Steve.
BAHWOLF - Always nice to have fans.
Steve Algieri - Both are important.
Lila - Ah--but the key word is
"great"
Helen - Usually it seems the
discussion is the dominance of one
BAHWOLF - Especially ones I don't have
to pay. LOL
Jo - Especially when it's 110 degrees.
BAHWOLF - LOL, Joan.
Jean Goldstrom - Huh?
Steve Algieri - Many
"teachers" clain that you can concentrate on one rather than the other by
formatting the story differently. I disagree. I want it all.
Lila - Jean, I've seen people go round
and round about whether character is more important than plot or vv, as if they are
separable.
BAHWOLF - So do I, Steve.
Jen - Yes, Steve. Me too.
Jean Goldstrom - Steve, I think you
are so right on this one. It would be interesting to challenge the "plot" vs
"character" school of theorizing to name several (or one) work with great
characters and no plot, or the other way around. I can't think of any. Can anyone?
Lila - The character may be
interesting and kooky, but do you want to read ten pages about that character painting
his/her toenails?
Helen - Some books are characterized
as "character driven" or "plot driven"
Jean Goldstrom - Lila, you are right
on!
BAHWOLF - Hmmm . . . Simmons' PHASES
OF GRAVITY had very little plot. It was 99.9% character driven.
Pat - It's been fun meeting you, one
and all, but I have to go read a book to review
Lila - bye pat!
Pat - So I'll tell you good-bye for
now
Jo - That's one of the things I meant
when I said many new writers try to "go by the book" pun intended. They are
taught that one is more important thatn the other.
Jen - Nope, Lila. Not a one.
Jean Goldstrom - Pat, nice visiting
with you.
BAHWOLF - Night, Pat
Jen - Oops, I mean Jean.
Pat - logged off.
Jen - Bye Pat
Jo - Goodnight Pat, thanks for coming.
Lila - Jean, I'm thinking about your
question.
Jen - Jo, that could be.
Steve Algieri - Jean, sure I can.
About 80% of all literary fiction has no or little plotting. I got a rejection from the
Paris Review once saying: Great story, too complicted plot and concrete ending. Our
readers prefer... etc. (bad fiction???)
Jean Goldstrom - I too must say
goodnight to this delightful group; but for less literary reasons. The cats tell me it is
time to open cans and kibble bags. Thanks, one and all, for sharing your thoughts. I've
enjoyed our visit.
Steve Algieri - Nite, Pat
Lila - Aren't Anne Tyler books
"character" books. Seems like nothing happens much.
Jen - Nice meeting you, Jean!
BAHWOLF - Night, Jean.
Lila - Bye, Jean!
Jo - Goodnight Jean, thanks for
coming.
Steve Algieri - Night, Jean
Jean Goldstrom - logged off.
Lila - On the other hand,
"Raiders of the Lost Arc" wore me out. I know it's not a book, just can't think
of something so ferociously paced in fiction at the moment.
Jo - You know Steve, The Review is
"Literary" fiction and I have a real problem with the submissions for that for
that reason.
Steve Algieri - I still can't find a
market for "Waltzing Matilda."
BAHWOLF - McCammon's MINE is about the
fastest paced fiction I can think of.
Helen - Dark Rivers of the Heart was
action
Lila - Me too, Jo. There are some
places I won't waste time sending to. Paris Review is one of them.
Jen - But it still had memorable
characters.
Jo - Not that they are "bad
fiction" they just don't seem "developed" (for lack of a better word)
enough. I guess I am too hard core sf.
BAHWOLF - Matheson's NOW YOU SEE IT
was also very fast-paced and plot-driven.
Steve Algieri - Novels must give
readers some breathers. They are like waves, rapidly growing to the Mac Daddy comes along.
Lila - In a lot of
"literary" fiction, seems like there's no resolution. It also seems real thin on
plot.
BAHWOLF - If you've never read NOW YOU
SEE IT, you should. The whole novel takes place in one room, in one day. Fascinating.
Lila - Steve, what is "Waltzing
Matilda" about?
Steve Algieri - I like stories that
begin with a bang, rise to a crescendo then rock my world. Is that too much to ask?
Jen - Never, have, Bah. I'll look for
it, though.
Jo - I don't think so, Steve.
Lila - Steve, I disagree. A novel that
gives me a breather gets put down and is never picked up again. Unless I'm worried about
the hero/heroine for some reason, I don't keep reading.
BAHWOLF - :;taking notes for next
ETERNITY submission:: LOL
Jen - Yes, but if there is too much
action too fast, then the reader gets lost and confused.
Steve Algieri - The complete toele is
Waltzing Matilda goes to Jail. It's about a 100 yo woman who fights progress in a small
southern town.
Jo - You got it, bah.
Jen - Bah, you took the words out of
my fingers.<G>
Steve Algieri - toele = toele. That's
bad!
Lila - What I mean, Jen, is that
something has to make me want to turn the page.
BAHWOLF - Well, I gotta run, folks.
Got a couple things to do before I can hit the sack. And I get up at 5:30.
Lila - bye, wolf!
BAHWOLF - NIce chatting with everyone!
Jen - I understand. But there can be
breathers that are merely lulls in the action. That's what I think of when I think of
breathers.
Jo - Goodnight Bah, thanks for coming.
Jen - Bye, Bah!
Steve Algieri - I have to leave to. I
enjoyed this. Enjoyed meeting friends old and new.
Jo - My old clock on the wall is
moving fast too, folks, maybe we better wrap it up.
Lila - It was nice meeting you, Steve
BAHWOLF - logged off.
Jo - Any last questions before Steve
takes his leave?
Jen - Nice talking to you, Steve!
Jo - Good night Steve. Thank you for
coming.
Steve Algieri - Remember: Write for
yourself; edit to sell. That's an idea for a great article.
Steve Algieri - Night all.
Jo - I have really enjoyed you all.
Lila - bye
Lila - Ditto, Jo
Jen - Me too, Jo. Di only had to
remind me twice.<g>
Helen - Bye to all. Thanks for
inviting me, Lila.
Jo - Thanks, Steve. Good idea.
Lila - Welcome, Helen!
Helen - I like, write for yourself,
edit to sell, Steve.
Jo - Lila I appreciate you.
Jen - I like that too.
Lila - My pleasure.
Helen - logged off.
Jo - Steve is one of the finest
editors I know. Tough though.
Lila - Writing is such a lonely
business. It's meeting the people that makes it so much fun
Jo - And a darn good writer too.
Jen - Yeah, tell me about it,
Jo.<g>
Jen - True, Lila.
Lila - What he said confirmed some of
my suspicions about various things. He had some interesting comments.
Jo - Good night Helen
Jo - Yes, and so did you all.
Jen - He does write nice rejection
letters, though.
Jo - You made it a lively chat. Thank
you all
Lila - Thanks for having me, Jo.
Jen - Thanks for the invite!
Jo - Well I should go too. My hubby is
looking at me with that gleam in his eye.
Jo - The one that says "Get off
the darn computer and talk to me!"
Jen - I have to get my characters out
of a snowstorm.<g>
Lila - What gleam is that? Men! You
can't live with them and can't kill them.
Jen - Oh, that gleam!<g>
Jo - You may stay and visit as long as
you like. It's your chat room.
Jo - Goodnight
Jo - logged off.
Jen - Night, Jo!
Lila - I've gotta go too.
Lila - logged off.
Jen - Yeah, I should go too.
DoctorLes - logged on.
DoctorLes - Hello Pen Pals! I know no
one else is here, but in case this is logged, I just wanted you all to know I stopped by.
Warm Regards, and see ya later. Les Garwood (AKA: DoctorLes@aol.com)
